Volume II Part 40 (1/2)

M^r Langdon thought there was great weight in the argument of M^r Luther Martin, and that the proposition subst.i.tuted by M^r Gov^r Morris would excite a dangerous opposition to the plan.

M^r Gov^r Morris thought on the contrary that the small States would be pleased with the regulation, as it holds up the idea of dismembering the large States.

M^r Butler. If new States were to be erected without the consent of the dismembered States, nothing but confusion would ensue. Whenever taxes should press on the people, demagogues would set up their schemes of new States.

Doc^r Johnson agreed in general with the ideas of M^r Sherman, but was afraid that as the clause stood, Vermont would be subjected to N. York, contrary to the faith pledged by Congress. He was of opinion that Vermont ought to be compelled to come into the Union.

M^r Langdon said his objections were connected with the case of Vermont.

If they are not taken in, & remain exempt from taxes, it would prove of great injury to N. Hamps.h.i.+re and the other neighbouring States.

M^r d.i.c.kinson hoped the article would not be agreed to. He dwelt on the impropriety of requiring the small States to secure the large ones in their extensive claims of territory.

M^r Wilson. When the _majority_ of a State wish to divide they can do so. The aim of those in opposition to the article, he perceived was that the Gen^l Government should abet the _minority_, & by that means divide a State against its own consent.

M^r Gov^r Morris. If the forced division of the States is the object of the new system, and is to be pointed ag^{st} one or two States, he expected the Gentlemen from these would pretty quickly leave us.

Adjourned.

THURSDAY AUGUST 30TH 1787. IN CONVENTION

Art XVII resumed for a question on it as amended by M^r Gov^r Morris's subst.i.tutes.

M^r Carrol moved to strike out so much of the article as requires the consent of the State to its being divided. He was aware that the object of this prerequisite might be to prevent domestic disturbances; but such was our situation with regard to the Crown lands, and the sentiments of Maryland on that subject, that he perceived we should again be at sea, if no guard was provided for the right of the U. States to the back lands. He suggested that it might be proper to provide that nothing in the Const.i.tution should affect the Right of the U. S. to lands ceded by G. Britain in the Treaty of peace, and proposed a committment to a member from each State. He a.s.sured the House that this was a point of a most serious nature. It was desirable above all things that the act of the Convention might be agreed to unanimously. But should this point be disregarded, he believed that all risks would be run by a considerable minority, sooner than give their concurrence.

M^r L. Martin 2^{ded} the motion for a commitment.

M^r Rutlidge. Is it to be supposed that the States are to be cut up without their own consent. The case of Vermont will probably be particularly provided for. There could be no room to fear, that Virginia or N. Carolina would call on the U. States to maintain their Government over the Mountains.

M^r Williamson said that N. Carolina was well disposed to give up her western lands, but attempts at compulsion was not the policy of the U.

S. He was for doing nothing in the const.i.tution in the present case, and for leaving the whole matter in Statu quo.

M^r Wilson was against the commitment. Unanimity was of great importance, but not to be purchased by the majority's yielding to the minority. He should have no objection to leaving the case of the new States as heretofore. He knew nothing that would give greater or juster alarm than the doctrine, that a political society is to be torn a.s.sunder without its own consent.

On M^r Carrol's motion for commitment

N. H. no. Mas. no. C^t no. N. J. ay. P^a no. Del. ay. M^d ay.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. no.

M^r Sherman moved to postpone the subst.i.tute for Art: XVII agreed to yesterday in order to take up the following amendment

The Legislature shall have power to admit other States into the Union, and new States to be formed by the division or junction of States now in the Union, with the consent of the Legislature of such States.” (The first part was meant for the case of Vermont to secure its admission.)

On the question, it pa.s.sed in the negative.

N. H. ay. Mas. ay. C^t ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no.

V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

Doc^r Johnson moved to insert the words ”hereafter formed or” after the words ”shall be” in the subst.i.tute for Art: XVII (the more clearly to save Vermont as being already formed into a State, from a dependence on the consent of N. York for her admission.) The motion was agreed to Del.