Volume I Part 23 (1/2)

M^r Hamilton apprehended inconveniency from _fixing_ the wages. He was strenuous ag^{st} making the National Council dependent on the Legislative rewards of the States. Those who pay are the masters of those who are paid. Payment by the States would be unequal as the distant States would have to pay for the same term of attendance and more days in travelling to & from the seat of the Gov^t. He expatiated emphatically on the difference between the feelings & views of the _people_--& the _Governments_ of the States arising from the personal interest & official inducements which must render the latter unfriendly to the Gen^l Gov^t.

M^r Wilson moved that the Salaries of the 1^{st} branch ”_be ascertained by the National Legislature_,” and be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury.

M^r Madison, thought the members of the Legis^l too much interested to ascertain their own compensation. It w^d be indecent to put their hands into the public purse for the sake of their own pockets.

On this question Ma.s.s. no. Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay.

P^a ay. Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. no. Geo. div^d.

On the question for striking out ”Nat^l Treasury” as moved by M^r Elseworth.

M^r Hamilton renewed his opposition to it. He pressed the distinction between the State Gov^{ts} & the people. The former w^d be the rivals of the Gen^l Gov^t. The State legislatures ought not therefore to be the paymasters of the latter.

M^r Elseworth. If we are jealous of the State Gov^{ts} they will be so of us. If on going home I tell them we gave the Gen: Gov^t such powers because we c^d not trust you. Will they adopt it, and with^t y^r approbation it is a nullity.[99]

[99] According to Yates, Wilson followed Ellsworth: ”Mr. Wilson. I am not for submitting the national government to the approbation of the state legislatures. I know that they and the state officers will oppose it. I am for carrying it to the people of each state.”--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 153.

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. no. Pen^a no.

Del. no. M^d no. V^a no. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. div^d.[100]

[100] (It appeared that Ma.s.s^{ts} concurred, not because they thought the State Treas^y ought to be subst.i.tuted; but because they thought nothing should be said on the subject, in which case it w^d silently devolve on the Nat^l Treasury to support the National Legislature.)--Madison's Note.

On a question for subst.i.tuting ”adequate compensation” in place of ”fixt stipends” it was agreed to nem. con. the friends of the latter being willing that the practicability of _fixing_ the compensation should be considered hereafter in forming the details.

It was then moved by M^r Butler that a question be taken on both points jointly; to wit ”adequate compensation to be paid out of the Nat^l Treasury.” It was objected to as out of order, the parts having been separately decided on. The Presid^t refer^d the question of order to the House, and it was determined to be in order. Con. N. J. Del. M^d N. C.

S. C.--ay.--N. Y. P^a V^a Geo. no.--Ma.s.s. divided. The question on the sentence was then postponed by S. Carolina in right of the State.

Col. Mason moved to insert ”twenty-five years of age as a qualification for the members of the 1^{st} branch.” He thought it absurd that a man today should not be permitted by the law to make a bargain for himself, and tomorrow should be authorized to manage the affairs of a great nation. It was more extraordinary as every man carried with him in his own experience a scale for measuring the deficiency of young politicians; since he would if interrogated be obliged to declare that his political opinions at the age of 21. were too crude & erroneous to merit an influence on public measures. It had been said that Cong^s had proved a good school for our young men. It might be so for any thing he knew but if it were, he chose that they should bear the expence of their own education.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} abridging the rights of election in any shape. It was the same thing whether this were done by disqualifying the objects of choice, or the persons chusing. The motion tended to damp the efforts of genius, and of laudable ambition. There was no more reason for incapacitating _youth_ than _age_, where the requisite qualifications were found. Many instances might be mentioned of signal services rendered in high stations to the public before the age of 25: The present M^r Pitt and Lord Bolingbroke were striking instances.

On the question for inserting ”25 years of age”

Ma.s.s^{ts} no. Con^t ay. N. Y. div^d. N. J. ay. P^a no.

Del. ay. M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Ghorum moved to strike out the last member of the 3 Resol: concerning ineligibility of members of the 1^{st} branch to office during the term of their members.h.i.+p & for one year after. He considered it as unnecessary & injurious. It was true abuses had been displayed in G. B. but no one c^d say how far they might have contributed to preserve the due influence of the Gov^t nor what might have ensued in case the contrary theory had been tried.

M^r Butler opposed it. This precaution ag^{st} intrigue was necessary.

He appealed to the example of G. B. where men got into Parl^t that they might get offices for themselves or their friends. This was the source of the corruption that ruined their Gov^t.

M^r King, thought we were refining too much. Such a restriction on the members would discourage merit. It would also give a pretext to the Executive for bad appointments, as he might always plead this as a bar to the choice he wished to have made.

M^r Wilson was ag^{st} fettering elections, and discouraging merit. He suggested also the fatal consequence in time of war, of rendering perhaps the best Commanders ineligible; appealing to our situation during the late war, and indirectly leading to a recollection of the appointment of the Co[~m]ander in Chief out of Congress.[101]

[101] According to Yates, Madison followed Wilson:

”Mr. Madison. Some gentlemen give too much weight and others too little to this subject. If you have no exclusive clause, there may be danger of creating offices or augmenting the stipends of those already created, in order to gratify some members if they were not excluded. Such an instance has fallen within my own observation. I am therefore of opinion, that no office ought to be open to a member, which may be created or augmented while he is in the legislature.”--Yates, _Secret Proceedings_, etc., 155. Yates gives the rest of the debate as follows:

”Mr. Mason. It seems as if it was taken for granted, that all offices will be filled by the executive, while I think many will remain in the gift of the legislature. In either case, it is necessary to shut the door against corruption. If otherwise, they may make or multiply offices, in order to fill them. Are gentlemen in earnest when they suppose that this exclusion will prevent the first characters from coming forward? Are we not struck at seeing the luxury and venality which has already crept in among us? If not checked we shall have amba.s.sadors to every petty state in Europe--the little republic of _St. Marino_ not excepted. We must in the present system remove the temptation. I admire many parts of the British const.i.tution and government, but I detest their corruption.--Why has the power of the crown so remarkably increased the last century? A stranger, by reading their laws, would suppose it considerably diminished; and yet, by the sole power of appointing the increased officers of government, corruption pervades every town and village in the kingdom. If such a restriction should abridge the right of election, it is still necessary, as it will prevent the people from ruining themselves; and will not the same causes here produce the same effects? I consider this clause as the corner-stone on which our liberties depend--and if we strike it out we are erecting a fabric for our destruction.