Volume I Part 16 (1/2)

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. C^t no. N. Y. ay. N. J. no. P^a ay. Del. no.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

M^r Spaight moved to fill the blank for the duration of the appointm^{ts} to the 2^d branch of the National Legislature with the words ”7 years.”

M^r Sherman, thought 7 years too long. He grounded his opposition he said on the principle that if they did their duty well, they would be reelected. And if they acted amiss, an earlier opportunity should be allowed for getting rid of them. He preferred 5 years which w^d be between the terms of the 1^{st} branch & of the executive.

M^r Pierce proposed 3 years. 7 years would raise an alarm. Great mischiefs had arisen in England from their septennial Act which was reprobated by most of their patriotic Statesmen.

M^r Randolph was for the term of 7 years. The democratic licentiousness of the State Legislatures proved the necessity of a firm Senate. The object of this 2^d branch is to controul the democratic branch of the Nat^l Legislature. If it be not a firm body, the other branch being more numerous, and coming immediately from the people, will overwhelm it. The Senate of Maryland const.i.tuted on like principles had been scarcely able to stem the popular torrent. No mischief can be apprehended, as the concurrence of the other branch, and in some measure, of the Executive, will in all cases be necessary. A firmness & independence may be the more necessary also in this branch, as it ought to guard the Const.i.tution ag^{st} encroachments of the Executive who will be apt to form combinations with the demagogues of the popular branch.

M^r Madison, considered 7 years as a term by no means too long. What we wished was to give to the Gov^t that stability which was every where called for, and which the Enemies of the Republican form alledged to be inconsistent with its nature. He was not afraid of giving too much stability by the term of Seven years. His fear was that the popular branch would still be too great an overmatch for it. It was to be much lamented that we had so little direct experience to guide us. The Const.i.tution of Maryland was the only one that bore any a.n.a.logy to this part of the plan. In no instance had the Senate of Mary^d created just suspicions of danger from it. In some instances perhaps it may have erred by yielding to the H. of Delegates. In every instance of their opposition to the measures of the H. of D. they had had with them the suffrages of the most enlightened and impartial people of the other States as well as of their own. In the States where the Senates, were chosen in the same manner as the other branches, of the Legislature, and held their seats for 4 years, the inst.i.tution was found to be no check whatever ag^{st} the instabilities of the other branches. He conceived it to be of great importance that a stable & firm Gov^t, organized in the republican form should be held out to the people. If this be not done, and the people be left to judge of this species of Gov^t by y^e operations of the defective systems under which they now live, it is much to be feared the time is not distant when, in universal disgust, they will renounce the blessing which they have purchased at so dear a rate, and be ready for any change that may be proposed to them.

On the question for ”seven years” as the term for the 2^d branch

Ma.s.s^{ts} divided. (M^r King, M^r Ghorum ay, M^r Gerry, M^r Strong, no) Con^t no. N. Y. div^d N. J. ay. P^a ay. Del. ay.

M^d ay. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. ay. Geo. ay.

M^r Butler and M^r Rutlidge proposed that the members of the 2^d branch should be ent.i.tled to no salary or compensation for their services. On the question,[81]--

Ma.s.s^{ts} div^d. Con^t ay. N. Y. no. N. J. no. P. no. Del. ay.

M^d no. V^a no. N. C. no. S. C. ay. Geo. no.

[81] (It is probable y^e votes here turned chiefly on the idea that if the salaries were not here provided for, the members would be paid by their respective States) This note for the bottom margin.--Madison's Note.

It was then moved & agreed that the clauses respecting the stipends & ineligibility of the 2^d branch be the same as, of the 1^{st} branch:--Con: disagreeing to the ineligibility.

It was moved & 2^{ded} to alter the Resol: 9. so as to read ”that the jurisdiction of the supreme tribunal shall be to hear & determine in the dernier resort, all piracies, felonies, &c.”

It was moved & 2^{ded} to strike out ”all piracies & felonies on the high seas,” which was agreed to.

It was moved & agreed to strike out ”all captures from an enemy.”

It was moved & agreed to strike out ”other States” and insert ”two distinct States of the Union.”

It was moved & agreed to postpone the consideration of the Resolution 9, relating to the Judiciary:

The Com^e then rose & the House Adjourned.

WEDNESDAY JUNE 13.[82] IN COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE

[82] Edward Carrington wrote to Madison from New York, June 13, 1787:

”The public mind is now on the point of a favourable turn to the objects of your meeting, and, being fairly met with the result, will, I am persuaded, eventually embrace it--being calculated for the permanent fitness, and not the momentary habits of the country, it may at first be viewed with hesitation, but derived and patronized as it will be, its influence must extend into an adoption as the present fabric gives way--the work once well done will be done forever, but patched up in accommodation to the whim of the day, it will soon require the hand of the cobbler again, and in every unfortunate experiment the materials are rendered the less fit for that monument of civil liberty which we wish to erect.--Const.i.tute a federal Government, invigorate & check it well--give it then independent powers over the Trade the Revenues, and force of the Union, and all things that involve any relations.h.i.+p to foreign powers--give it also the revisal of all State acts--unless it possesses a compleat controul over the State Governments, the constant effort will be to resume the delegated powers,--nor do I see what inducement the federal sovereignty can have to negative an innocent act of a State--Const.i.tute it in such shape that, its first principles being preserved, it will be a good republic--I wish to see that system have a fair experiment--but let the liability to encroachment be rather from the federal, than the State, governments--in the first case we shall insensibly glide into a monarchy: in the latter nothing but anarchy can be the consequence.

”Some Gentlemen think of a total surrender of the State Sovereignty--I see not the necessity of that measure for giving us national stability in consequence--the negative of the federal sovereignty will effectually prevent the existence of any licentious or inconsiderate act--and I believe that even under a new monarchy it would be found necessary thus to continue the local administration--general Laws would operate many particular [undecipherable] and a general legislature would be found incompetent to the formation of local ones--the interest of the United States may be well combined for the common good--but the affairs of so extensive a country are not to be thrown into one ma.s.s--an attempt to confederate upon terms materially opposed to the particular Interests would in all probability occasion a dismemberment, and in that event, within a long time yet to come, the prospects of commerce will be at an end as to any degree of national importance, let her fate be what it may as to freedom or va.s.salage.”--_Mad. MSS._

Resol: 9 being resumed