Volume I Part 6 (2/2)

In Committee of the whole on Mr. Randolph's propositions.

The 3^d Resolution ”that the national Legislature ought to consist of two branches” was agreed to without debate or dissent, except that of Pennsylvania, given probably from complaisance to Doc^r Franklin who was understood to be partial to a single House of Legislation.

Resol: 4. first clause, ”that the members of the first branch of the National Legislature ought to be elected by the people of the several States,” being taken up,

M^r Sherman opposed the election by the people, insisting that it ought to be by the State Legislatures. The people he said, immediately should have as little to do as may be about the Government. They want information and are constantly liable to be misled.

M^r Gerry. The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy.

The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots.

In Ma.s.s^{ts} it had been fully confirmed by experience that they are daily misled into the most baneful measures and opinions by the false reports circulated by designing men, and which no one on the spot can refute. One princ.i.p.al evil arises from the want of due provision for those employed in the administration of Governm^t. It would seem to be a maxim of democracy to starve the public servants. He mentioned the popular clamour in Ma.s.s^{ts} for the reduction of salaries and the attack made on that of the Gov^r though secured by the spirit of the Const.i.tution itself. He had he said been too republican heretofore: he was still however republican, but had been taught by experience the danger of the levelling spirit.

M^r Mason argued strongly for an election of the larger branch by the people. It was to be the grand depository of the democratic principle of the Gov^t. It was, so to speak, to be our House of Commons--It ought to know & sympathize with every part of the community; and ought therefore to be taken not only from different parts of the whole republic, but also from different districts of the larger members of it, which had in several instances particularly in Virg^a, different interests and views arising from difference of produce, of habits &c &c. He admitted that we had been too democratic but was afraid we s^d incautiously run into the opposite extreme. We ought to attend to the rights of every cla.s.s of the people. He had often wondered at the indifference of the superior cla.s.ses of society to this dictate of humanity & policy, considering that however affluent their circ.u.mstances, or elevated their situations, might be, the course of a few years, not only might but certainly would, distribute their posterity throughout the lowest cla.s.ses of Society.

Every selfish motive therefore, every family attachment, ought to recommend such a system of policy as would provide no less carefully for the rights and happiness of the lowest than of the highest orders of Citizens.

M^r Wilson contended strenuously for drawing the most numerous branch of the Legislature immediately from the people. He was for raising the federal pyramid to a considerable alt.i.tude, and for that reason wished to give it as broad a basis as possible. No government could long subsist without the confidence of the people. In a republican Government this confidence was peculiarly essential. He also thought it wrong to increase the weight of the State Legislatures by making them the electors of the national Legislature. All interference between the general and local Governm^{ts} should be obviated as much as possible.

On examination it would be found that the opposition of States to federal measures had proceeded much more from the officers of the States, than from the people at large.

M^r Madison considered the popular election of one branch of the national Legislature as essential to every plan of free Government. He observed that in some of the States one branch of the Legislature was composed of men already removed from the people by an intervening body of electors. That if the first branch of the general legislature should be elected by the State Legislatures, the second branch elected by the first--the Executive by the second together with the first; and other appointments again made for subordinate purposes by the Executive, the people would be lost sight of altogether; and the necessary sympathy between them and their rulers and officers, too little felt. He was an advocate for the policy of refining the popular appointments by successive filtrations, but thought it might be pushed too far. He wished the expedient to be resorted to only in the appointment of the second branch of the Legislature, and in the Executive & judiciary branches of the Government. He thought too that the great fabric to be raised would be more stable and durable, if it should rest on the solid foundation of the people themselves, than if it should stand merely on the pillars of the Legislatures.

M^r Gerry did not like the election by the people. The maxims taken from the British Const.i.tution were often fallacious when applied to our situation which was extremely different. Experience he said had shewn that the State legislatures drawn immediately from the people did not always possess their confidence. He had no objection however to an election by the people if it were so qualified that men of honor & character might not be unwilling to be joined in the appointments. He seemed to think the people might nominate a certain number out of which the State legislatures should be bound to choose.[42]

[42] ”Mr. Strong would agree to the principle, provided it would undergo a certain modification, but pointed out nothing.”--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 318.

M^r Butler thought an election by the people an impracticable mode.

On the question for an election of the first branch of the national Legislature, by the people,

Ma.s.s^{ts} ay. Connec^t div^d. N. York ay. N. Jersey no. Pen^a ay.

Delaw^r div^d. V^a ay. N. C. ay. S. C. no. Georg^a ay.

The remaing Clauses of Resolution 4^{th} relating to the qualifications of members of the National Legislature, being posp^d nem. con., as entering too much into detail for general propositions.

The Committee proceeded to Resolution 5. ”that the second, (or senatorial) branch of the National Legislature ought to be chosen by the first branch out of persons nominated by the State Legislatures.”

M^r Spaight contended that the 2^d branch ought to be chosen by the State Legislatures and moved an amendment to that effect.[43]

[43] ”M^r King observed that the Question called for was premature, and out of order,--that unless we go on regularly from one principle to the other we shall draw out our proceedings to an endless length.”--Pierce's Notes, _Am.

Hist. Rev._, iii., 318.

M^r Butler apprehended that the taking so many powers out of the hands of the States as was proposed, tended to destroy all that balance and security of interests among the States which it was necessary to preserve; and called on M^r Randolph the mover of the propositions, to explain the extent of his ideas, and particularly the number of members he meant to a.s.sign to this second branch.

M^r Rand^f observed that he had at the time of offering his propositions stated his ideas as far as the nature of general propositions required; that details made no part of the plan, and could not perhaps with propriety have been introduced. If he was to give an opinion as to the number of the second branch, he should say that it ought to be much smaller than that of the first; so small as to be exempt from the pa.s.sionate proceedings to which numerous a.s.semblies are liable. He observed that the general object was to provide a cure for the evils under which the U. S. laboured; that in tracing these evils to their origin every man had found it in the turbulance and follies of democracy: that some check therefore was to be sought for ag^{st} this tendency of our Governments: and that a good Senate seemed most likely to answer the purpose.[44]

[44] ”Butler said that until the number of the Senate could be known it would be impossible for him to give a vote on it.”--Pierce's Notes, _Am. Hist. Rev._, iii., 318.

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