Volume I Part 5 (2/2)

Ever most truly yours, W. W. G.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

Pall Mall, Sat.u.r.day, Nov. 30th, 1782.

My Dear Brother,

I have just been with Townshend, who sent for me on the subject of a despatch from you, relating to the proceedings in the King's Bench here, on an Irish cause.

I have seen Troward, the attorney concerned in the cause, and from him have learnt, what you probably know by this time, that the case has been argued here, and the judgment of the Court in Ireland affirmed; so that nothing can be done in it here, especially as the Term has been over these two days. It is impossible not to see the use which will be made in Ireland of this unlucky business. You say nothing in your letter to Townshend of the Protest, nor have I heard a word on that or any other subject from Ireland since I have been here. But I much fear that the alarm among the Bar, upon a point which affects their private interests as well as their national pride, will have prevented, or in great measure impeded its being signed.

The only grounds that you can take, as far at least as I can see, are those which I have desired Townshend to insert in his answer. The Bill of Exceptions was certified from an Irish Court. It has been depending eighteen months. The objection to the jurisdiction was never started. The King's Bench in Ireland either has been applied to or will be so next Term, to grant a writ of possession on the affirmance of the English Court. This will of course be denied them, and the whole English proceeding treated as waste paper. No Judge will allow--no sheriff will execute, any English process. No man will again be so absurd as to subject himself to a considerable expense to obtain a judgment of no more effect than the decisions of a Prussian court-martial would be as to a question of property here.

Still, however, I am far from being insensible to the clamour which will be raised, and to the advantage which will be taken of the opinion of the Court here, that their jurisdiction still remains, notwithstanding the Irish Act to the contrary. Possibly you may find it necessary to hold out some solution; and perhaps you will think the opportunity is not a bad one to cut the ground still more decisively from under Mr. Flood's feet than even by the proposed resolutions. What I mean is, the pa.s.sing a bill here which should in the preamble declare the repeal to have been a renunciation of the rights formerly exercised by this kingdom over Ireland, and should enact that _therefore_ for the future, no writ of error, &c., &c., should be received, signed or determined in any of the King's Courts of Justice in this country. If this idea should please you, it might be done immediately, and you might settle the words with Yelverton or Burgh.

If you think this too like a concession, you might hold out the idea of an Act to be pa.s.sed in Ireland, inflicting the penalties of a _praemunire_ against any persons seeking justice out of the kingdom; in imitation of the old statutes against ecclesiastics applying to the papal authority.

Lord Shelburne threw out to me the other day, but when I could not ask him any more upon the subject, the idea of a paragraph about Ireland in the King's Speech. I have writ to Townshend to-day, to desire that if this idea is pursued, he will let me see it before the words are finally determined upon. I think such a paragraph may have a good effect; because, when re-echoed in the addresses, it will include the three branches.

I am waiting with the most anxious expectation the decision of the great question--peace or war? Reports are hourly circulated on both sides, but nothing is known from any authority. I need not say, that the moment it is known, I will send it off.

I know no more of the East India business than you will see in the papers. I was so intent on this, that I forgot to ask Townshend to-day about it.

I shall most probably be with you before you can answer this, as the 5th is the day for the meeting. But if they should again prorogue the Parliament, and wish me to stay, supposing the point not decided, what shall I do?

Ever most affectionately yours, W. W. G.

Townshend and Conway have both been plaguing me about Murray, who wanted to raise a corps in the North. It seems he is an Irishman, with considerable connexions in the North. Talbot's inspection makes a figure in the papers.

MR. W. W. GRENVILLE TO LORD TEMPLE.

(Most Secret and Private.)

Pall Mall, Monday, Dec. 2nd, 1782.

My dear Brother,

I told you, in my last letter, that Lord Shelburne had thrown out to me the idea of a paragraph in the King's Speech on the subject of Ireland, and that I had applied to Townshend, that I might see it before it was decided upon. In consequence of this, I received, through him, a message from Lord Shelburne, desiring to see me this morning. I have just been with him. He made his excuses to me as soon as I came in, for having appointed me at a time when he should only be able to converse with me for _a very short time_, as unexpected business had occurred. He then took out the Speech, and read to me the sentence in question, which is nearly this: The liberal spirit of your measures respecting the commerce of Ireland, confirmed by the rest of your conduct towards her, meets with my full approbation and concurrence; and I should recommend to you a general revision of the trade laws of this kingdom on the same extended principles. I own this did not strike me as being sufficiently extensive. I mentioned the insertion of the word rights--commerce and rights--but he did not at all seem to give into it. He said that we were not ripe for that; that the best thing that could be done was that we should adhere exactly to the settlement; that it was a bond from which we ought in no instance to depart; and that a steady Government would enable us to stand to it in Ireland as well as here. Above all, he said he looked to the effects of a full confidence between you and himself, which union and concurrence would be more important for Government than any other point whatever--that it gave more strength than even abilities or weight. With this I closed in, seeing it in vain to push the other, and told him that the appearance of confidence and support here would, I was convinced, a.s.sist you more than even the adoption of any specific measure; that in the case of a peace, I did not doubt that you would be sufficiently strong to carry on your Government with ease, but that I could not answer for the event of a continuance of the war. He answered, that the situation of Ireland weighed very materially with him in his wishes for peace, and that, although he never wished to s.h.i.+ft off responsibility, yet he trusted in your integrity and honour; that, if he found it necessary, he should be enabled to state that part of the subject from the best authority. To this I thought myself justified in answering, that most certainly you would never abandon a ground which you had already stated to him, and which every hour made clearer to you; and that such a consideration certainly ought to weigh with Government in making the peace.

He then went on to say, that he had in general no doubt but that you would find your Government easy and prosperous; he enumerated the advantages with which you will meet the Parliament _in October_--a settled ministry here, things arranged in Ireland, the Parliament fully canva.s.sed, and possibly a peace. I said, that when I saw him before, I had stated the possibility of your being driven to meet the Parliament in the spring; that I had stated it as a possible evil; and that I wished to explain to him that the necessity of this would by no means be affected either way by the difference between an immediate dissolution, and that which must take place before the March a.s.sizes. To this he by no means agreed; as a dissolution late in February would, he said, by the time the elections were over, bring us far on towards the summer months.

He then reverted to his opinion as to the probability of your having a smooth and easy Government. It was his idea he said, that real commotion never was produced but by real grievances.

My answer was, that the people of Ireland did suffer real misery, which, as was frequently the case, they would impute to Government, however little founded such an idea would be. This, he said, would lead us at length into a disquisition on the state of Ireland, on which subject he intended, before I went, to have a long conversation with me, but that he was now too much pressed.

After this, I thought I could not, with any propriety, prolong my visit. Since I wrote the above, I have seen Townshend. He agrees perfectly in opinion with me, that the mention of the commerce, with so very general a reference to the const.i.tutional part of the question, could produce no good effect in Ireland, and might be made an invidious use of. He threw out the idea of omitting the paragraph entirely; and most certainly, if Lord Shelburne sees, or thinks he sees, any objection to being more explicit on the subject, I know no necessity whatever for saying a word about it. It certainly will produce debate on the affairs of Ireland, which is much to be avoided; and in the form in which it now stands, or indeed in any into which it could be thrown, so as to form part of the King's Speech, it would be of no advantage to us in Ireland, whilst it would afford ground of cavil and objection to our enemies. In this idea, I have written to Lord Shelburne, to desire to see him again; but as he may possibly appoint me for to-morrow, and you must be impatient to hear from England, I shall not detain the messenger.

With respect to that cursed cause, I hardly know what to say: it must have set you very much afloat, particularly with the lawyers who are interested in the question. In my last letter, I threw out the idea of a bill in this country to prevent the receiving or hearing Irish causes in the English courts. I have shown to Townshend the draught of such a bill, which I enclose to you with this letter. I believe his disposition is most real and unaffected, to leave the management of the whole Irish business to you, and to support you honestly and fairly in whatever measures you adopt. But it is not difficult to see that the whole administration and business of Government _roule sur bien un autre pivot_. As far as one can separate Lord Shelburne's intentions from his verbiage and professions, I think I see a strong disposition to resist the least tendency towards any further concession, or even to the appearance of it.

<script>