Part 13 (1/2)

Jim: And we followed his show, which was the best thing that happened to us.

Judd: You were on right after. So that night on TV was All in the Family and Mary Tyler Moore, M*A*S*H, The Bob Newhart Show, and then Carol Burnett?

Jim: It was a great night.

Judd: A perfect night.

Jim: The last big Sat.u.r.day night.

Judd: It's completely different now, because no one's watching any show in those kinds of numbers. The biggest night of Breaking Bad is half of what The Mary Tyler Moore Show would get.

Jim: I had a show canceled with a thirty-five share. (Laughs) Judd: How do you think that changes the culture, the fact that we're not watching the same things together anymore?

Jim: Well, it's changed it enormously. Look at sports. Or American Idol, a few years ago. These are the only kinds of things that bring people to the watering hole now, you know? We all come and talk about it the next day. We're all bound together. We all had a common experience. All of that is changing. There's a price to that.

Judd: Yeah.

Jim: But television is still the greatest job. We agree on that, right? Television is the greatest job?

Judd: Yes. Yes. So, was Mary Tyler Moore eight seasons?

Jim: Seven.

Judd: Seven seasons, and it went right into Lou Grant.

Jim: Yes.

Judd: That was one of the great transitions of all time.

Jim: Yeah. When is a spin-off not a spin-off?

Judd: I used to love that show.

Jim: You know what was so great about that? We got our stories from the newspapers, literally.

Judd: And so after Mary Tyler Moore, you went into Taxi?

Jim: Mm-hmm.

Judd: What was that like, working with Andy Kaufman?

Jim: He'd always be in character. He was great. I tell Andy stories all the time. How can you resist Andy stories? He invented performance art, just amazing, bizarre stuff. But when you gave him notes, he'd be in that character, and you'd give him notes and it would be like he was Latka with an American talking fast at him. And then he'd do the note. He'd always do the note.

Judd: But he was in character the whole time he was on set?

Jim: Yes.

Judd: Did you have private moments with him when he wasn't in character?

Jim: My favorite private moment with him was when he was hospitalized after the wrestling match, and I found out it was all a fake.

Judd: Who told you?

Jim: We had been really scared. We were running the tape and then we froze up and we saw-he did a very difficult physical stunt, a brilliant physical stunt. There's no way a stuntman could do that stunt better than he did. That's how good Andy was. And I was p.i.s.sed off because- Judd: Because he scared everyone?

Jim: This was on front pages! Yeah. And I said, ”Do you know what it's like to think you were seriously injured?” And he says, ”Do you know what it's like to be in traction for a few days?” (Laughs) Judd: (Laughs) For no reason. Where were you when you had that conversation?

Jim: I was in my office and I think he was still in the hospital. I don't know.

Judd: And so when he would make a joke like that, what was his tone like? Did he ever talk about what the purpose of it was?

Jim: He'd talk like a guy who just came up with a good bit.

Judd: To him the bit was just riling people up? There's no point to it, really, other than isn't it funny that you're going to get upset about this?

Jim: He was inventing an art form, for Christ sake. He was an original talent.

Judd: You spent years around him, but there were very few moments when he would drop it and say, ”The reason I'm doing this is because...”

Jim: It was deeper than that. And it's not even a question of dropping it. He was in it.

Judd: Writer-wise, Taxi was like the all-star team of all time. Has there ever been more great writers in the same s.p.a.ce at once?

Jim: We had a great time. We really worked. It was great. The Charles brothers. David Lloyd. It just worked. And the cast was great, too. We had fun. We had a party every Friday night. And this was in the days when- Judd: When everyone was on that lot?

Jim: Yes. And it was literally segregated. Television people used one entrance and movie people used another. At that time, n.o.body who ever worked in television got a movie job. But you know that.

Judd: You couldn't be a movie star and a television star.

Jim: You couldn't get a job. You couldn't get a writing job. n.o.body was interested. You did television. You were lower order.

Judd: Even as a writer, you couldn't cross over?

Jim: There were a few people who made it over the fence in the early eighties. But the fence was still up-which was great, because you not only had a job you loved, and were making terrific money, but you also got to feel like an underdog. (Laughs) Judd: While you were getting rich.

Jim: It was bliss. It was just bliss. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Judd: And was that the great moment for you? I feel like, in my life, there was a brief moment where we were all together and then people started splitting off and doing different things, but still, there was that one moment where everyone is around each other for a while. Was Taxi your special moment, where everyone was at the perfect level of their career to bond and not be behind their gates and split off?

Jim: Yes, it was perfect. It was a community, a real community. Everyone's working. Everyone's having fun, doing something. I mean, that's it, you know?

Judd: And that's about when you started directing movies, right? With Starting Over?

Jim: Yes.