Part 221 (1/2)

Mr. Hartley (of Penn.) then moved to refer the address of the annual a.s.sembly of Friends, held at Philadelphia, to a committee; he thought it a mark of respect due so numerous and respectable a part of the community.

Mr. White (of Va.) seconded the motion.

Mr. Smith, (of S.C.) However respectable the pet.i.tioners may be, I hope gentlemen will consider that others equally respectable are opposed to the object which is aimed at, and are ent.i.tled to an opportunity of being heard before the question is determined. I flatter myself gentlemen will not press the point of commitment to-day, it being contrary to our usual mode of procedure.

Mr. Fitzsimons, (of Penn.) If we were now about to determine the final question, the observation of the gentleman from South Carolina would apply; but, sir, the present question does not touch upon the merits of the case; it is merely to refer the memorial to a committee, to consider what is proper to be done; gentlemen, therefore, who do not mean to oppose the commitment to-morrow, may as well agree to it to-day, because it will tend to save the time of the house.

Mr. Jackson (of Geo.) wished to know why the second reading was to be contended for to-day, when it was diverting the attention of the members from the great object that was before the committee of the whole? Is it because the feelings of the Friends will be hurt, to have their affair conducted in the usual course of business? Gentlemen who advocate the second reading to-day, should respect the feelings of the members who represent that part of the Union which is princ.i.p.ally to be affected by the measure. I believe, sir, that the latter cla.s.s consists of as useful and as good citizens as the pet.i.tioners, men equally friends to the revolution, and equally susceptible of the refined sensations of humanity and benevolence. Why then should such particular attention be paid to them, for bringing forward a business of questionable policy? If Congress are disposed to interfere in the importation of slaves, they can take the subject up without advisers, because the Const.i.tution expressly mentions all the power they can exercise on the subject.

Mr. Sherman (of Conn.) suggested the idea of referring it to a committee, to consist of a member from each State, because several States had already made some regulations on this subject. The sooner the subject was taken up he thought it would be the better.

Mr. Parker, (of Va.) I hope, Mr. Speaker, the pet.i.tion of these respectable people, will be attended to with all the readiness the importance of its object demands: and I cannot help expressing the pleasure I feel in finding so considerable a part of the community attending to matters of such momentous concern to the future prosperity and happiness of the people of America. I think it my duty, as a citizen of the Union, to espouse their cause; and it is inc.u.mbent upon every member of this house to sift the subject well, and ascertain what can be done to restrain a practice so nefarious. The Const.i.tution has authorized as to levy a tax upon the importation of such persons as the States shall authorize to be admitted. I would willingly go to that extent; and if any thing further can be devised to discountenance the trade, consistent with the terms of the Const.i.tution, I shall cheerfully give it my a.s.sent and support.

Mr. Madison, (of Va.) The gentleman from Pennsylvania, (Mr.

Fitzsimons) has put this question on its proper ground. If gentlemen do not mean to oppose the commitment to-morrow, they may as well acquiesce in it to-day; and I apprehend gentlemen need not be alarmed at any measure it is likely Congress should take; because they will recollect, that the Const.i.tution secures to the individual States the right of admitting, if they think proper, the importation of slaves into their own territory, for eighteen years yet unexpired; subject, however, to a tax, if Congress are disposed to impose it, of not more than ten dollars on each person.

The pet.i.tion, if I mistake not, speaks of artifices used by self-interested persons to carry on this trade; and the pet.i.tion from New York states a case, that may require the consideration of Congress. If anything is within the Federal authority to restrain such violation of the rights of nations, and of mankind, as is supposed to be practised in some parts of the United States it will certainly tend to the interest and honor of the community to attempt a remedy, and is a proper subject for our discussion. It may be, that foreigners take the advantage of the liberty afforded them by the American trade, to employ our s.h.i.+pping in the slave trade between Africa and the West Indies, when they are restrained from employing their own by restrictive laws of their nation. If this is the case, is there any person of humanity that would not wish to prevent them? Another consideration why we should commit the pet.i.tion is, that we may give no ground of alarm by a serious opposition, as if we were about to take measures that were unconst.i.tutional.

Mr. Stone (of Md.) feared that if Congress took any measures, indicative of an intention to interfere with the kind of property alluded to, it would sink it in value very considerably, and might be injurious to a great number of the citizens, particularly in the Southern States.

He thought the subject was of general concern, and that the pet.i.tioners had no more right to interfere with it than any other members of the community. It was an unfortunate circ.u.mstance, that it was the property of sects to imagine they understood the rights of human nature letter than all the world beside; and that they would, in consequence, be meddling with concerns in which they had nothing to do.

As the pet.i.tion relates to a subject of a general nature, it ought to lie on the table, as information; he would never consent to refer pet.i.tions, unless the pet.i.tioners were exclusively interested. Suppose there was a pet.i.tion to come before us from a society, praying us to be honest in our transactions, or that we should administer the Const.i.tution according to its intention--what would you do with a pet.i.tion of this kind? Certainly it would remain on your table. He would, nevertheless, not have it supposed, that the people had not a right to advise and give their opinion upon public measures; but he would not be influenced by that advice or opinion, to take up a subject sooner than the convenience of other business would admit.

Unless he changed his sentiments, he would oppose the commitment.

Mr. Burke (of S.C.) thought gentlemen were paying attention to what did not deserve it. The men in the gallery had come here to meddle in a business with which they have nothing to do; they were volunteering it in the cause of others, who neither expected nor desired it. He had a respect for the body of Quakers, but, nevertheless, he did not believe they had more virtue, or religion, than other people, nor perhaps so much, if they were examined to the bottom, notwithstanding their outward pretences. If their pet.i.tion is to be noticed, Congress ought to wait till counter applications were made, and then they might have the subject more fairly before them. The rights of the Southern States ought not to be threatened, and their property endangered, to please people who were to be unaffected by the consequences.

Mr. Hartley (of Penn.) thought the memorialists did not deserve to be aspersed for their conduct, if influenced by motives of benignity, they solicited the Legislature of the Union to repel, as far as in their power, the increase of a licentious traffic. Nor do they merit censure, because their behavior has the appearance of more morality than other people's. But it is not for Congress to refuse to hear the applications of their fellow-citizens, while those applications contain nothing unconst.i.tutional or offensive. What is the object of the address before us? It is intended to bring before this House a subject of great importance to the cause of humanity; there are certain facts to be enquired into, and the memorialists are ready to give all the information in their power; they are waiting, at a great distance from their homes, and wish to return; if, then, it will be proper to commit the pet.i.tion to-morrow, it will be equally proper to-day, for it is conformable to our practice, beside, it will tend to their conveniency.

Mr. Lawrance, (of N.Y.) The Gentleman from South Carolina says, the pet.i.tioners are of a society not known in the laws or Const.i.tution.

Sir, in all our acts, as well as in the Const.i.tution, we have noticed this Society; or why is it that we admit them to affirm, in cases where others are called upon to swear? If we pay this attention to them, in one instance, what good reason is there for condemning them in another? I think the gentleman from Maryland (Mr. Stone,) carries his apprehensions too far, when he fears that negro-property will fall in value, by the suppression of the slave-trade: not that I suppose it immediately in the power of Congress to abolish a traffic which is a disgrace to human nature; but it appears to me, that, if the importation was crushed, the value of a slave would be increased instead of diminished; however, considerations of this kind have nothing to do with the present question; gentlemen may acquiesce in the commitment of the memorial, without pledging themselves to support its object.

Mr. Jackson, (of Ga.) I differ much in opinion with the gentleman last up. I apprehend if, through the interference of the general government, the slave-trade was abolished, it would evince to the people a disposition toward a total emanc.i.p.ation, and they would hold their property in jeopardy. Any extraordinary attention of Congress to this pet.i.tion may have, in some degree, a similar effect. I would beg to ask those, then, who are so desirous of freeing the negroes, if they have funds sufficient to pay for them? If they have, they may come forward on that business with some propriety; but, if they have not, they should keep themselves quiet, and not interfere with a business in which they are not interested. They may as well come forward, and solicit Congress to interdict the West-India trade, because it is injurious to the morals of mankind; from thence we import rum, which has a debasing influence upon the consumer. But, sir, is the whole morality of the United States confined to the Quakers? Are they the only people whose feelings are to be consulted on this occasion? Is it to them we owe our present happiness? Was it they who formed the Const.i.tution? Did they, by their arms, or contributions, establish our independence? I believe they were generally opposed to that measure. Why, then, on their application, shall we injure men, who, at the risk of their lives and fortunes, secured to the community their liberty and property? If Congress pay any uncommon degree of attention to their pet.i.tion, it will furnish just ground of alarm to the Southern States. But, why do these men set themselves up, in such a particular manner, against slavery? Do they understand the rights of mankind, and the disposition of Providence better than others? If they were to consult that Book which claims our regard, they will find that slavery is not only allowed, but commended. Their Saviour, who possessed more benevolence and commiseration than they pretend to, has allowed of it. And if they fully examine the subject, they will find that slavery has been no novel doctrine since the days of Cain. But be these things as they may, I hope the house will order the pet.i.tion to lie on the table, in order to prevent alarming our Southern brethren.

Mr. Sedgwick, (of Ma.s.s.) If it was a serious question, whether the Memorial should be committed or not, I would not urge it at this time; but that cannot be a question for a moment, if we consider our relative situation with the people. A number of men,--who are certainly very respectable, and of whom, as a society, it may be said with truth, that they conform their moral conduct to their religious tenets, as much as any people in the whole community,--come forward and tell you, that you may effect two objects by the exercise of a Const.i.tutional authority which will give great satisfaction; on the one hand you may acquire revenue, and on the other, restrain a practice productive of great evil. Now, setting aside the religious motives which influenced their application, have they not a right, as citizens, to give their opinion of public measures? For my part I do not apprehend that any State, or any considerable number of individuals in any State, will be seriously alarmed at the commitment of the pet.i.tion, from a fear that Congress intend to exercise an unconst.i.tutional authority, in order to violate their rights; I believe there is not a wish of the kind entertained by any member of this body. How can gentlemen hesitate then to pay that respect to a memorial which it is ent.i.tled to, according to the ordinary mode of procedure in business? Why shall we defer doing that till to-morrow, which we can do to-day? for the result, I apprehend, will be the same in either case.

Mr. Smith, (of S.C.) The question, I apprehend, is, whether we will take the pet.i.tion up for a second reading, and not whether it shall be committed? Now, I oppose this, because it is contrary to our usual practice, and does not allow gentlemen time to consider of the merits of the prayer; perhaps some gentlemen may think it improper to commit it to so large a committee as has been mentioned; a variety of causes may be supposed to show that such a hasty decision is improper; perhaps the prayer of it is improper. If I understood it right, on its first reading, though, to be sure, I did not comprehend perfectly all that the pet.i.tion contained, it prays that we should take measures for the abolition of the slave trade; this is desiring an unconst.i.tutional act, because the const.i.tution secures that trade to the States, independent of congressional restrictions, for the term of twenty-one years. If, therefore, it prays for a violation of const.i.tutional rights, it ought to be rejected, as an attempt upon the virtue and patriotism of the house.

Mr. Boudinot, (of N.J.) It has been said that the Quakers have no right to interfere in this business; I am surprised to hear this doctrine advanced, after it has been so lately contended, and settled, that the people have a right to a.s.semble and pet.i.tion for redress of grievances; it is not because the pet.i.tion comes from the society of Quakers that I am in favor of the commitment, but because it comes from citizens of the United States, who are as equally concerned in the welfare and happiness of their country as others. There certainly is no foundation for the apprehensions which seem to prevail in gentlemen's minds. If the pet.i.tioners were so uninformed as to suppose that congress could be guilty of a violation of the const.i.tution, yet, I trust we know our duty better than to be led astray by an application from any man, or set of men whatever. I do not consider the merits of the main question to be before us; it will be time enough to give our opinions upon that, when the committee have reported. If it is in our power, by recommendation, or any other way, to put a stop to the slave-trade in America, I do not doubt of its policy; but how far the const.i.tution will authorize us to attempt to depress it, will be a question well worthy of our consideration.

Mr. Sherman (of Conn.) observed, that the pet.i.tioners from New York, stated that they had applied to the legislature of that State, to prohibit certain practices which they conceived to be improper, and which tended to injure the well-being of the community; that the legislature had considered the application, but had applied no remedy, because they supposed that power was exclusively vested in the general government, under the const.i.tution of the United States; it would, therefore, be proper to commit that pet.i.tion, in order to ascertain what were the powers of the general government, in the case doubted by the legislature of New York.

Mr. Gerry (of Ma.s.s.) thought gentlemen were out of order in entering upon the merits of the main question at this time, when they were considering the expediency of committing the pet.i.tion; he should, therefore, now follow them further in that track than barely to observe, that it was the right of the citizens to apply for redress, in every case they conceived themselves aggrieved in; and it was the duty of congress to afford redress as far as in their power. That their Southern brethren had been betrayed into the slave-trade by the first settlers, was to be lamented; they were not to be reflected on for not viewing this subject in a different light, the prejudice of education is eradicated with difficulty; but he thought nothing would excuse the general government for not exerting itself to prevent, as far as they const.i.tutionally could, the evils resulting from such enormities as were alluded to by the pet.i.tioners; and the same considerations induced him highly to commend the part the society of Friends had taken; it was the cause of humanity they had interested themselves in, and he wished, with them, to see measures pursued by every nation, to wipe off the indelible stain which the slave-trade had brought upon all who were concerned in it.

Mr. Madison (of Va.) thought the question before the committee was no otherwise important than as gentlemen made it so by their serious opposition. Did they permit the commitment of the Memorial, as a matter of course, no notice would be taken of it out of doors; it could never be blown up into a decision of the question respecting the discouragement of the African slave-trade, nor alarm the owners with an apprehension that the general government were about to abolish slavery in all the States; such things are not contemplated by any gentleman; but, to appearance, they decide the question more against themselves than would be the case if it was determined on its real merits, because gentlemen may be disposed to vote for the commitment of a pet.i.tion, without any intention of supporting the prayer of it.

Mr. White (of Va.) would not have seconded the motion, if he had thought it would have brought on a lengthy debate. He conceived that a business of this kind ought to be decided without much discussion; it had constantly been the practice of the house, and he did not suppose there was any reason for a deviation.

Mr. Page (of Va.) said, if the memorial had been presented by any individual, instead of the respectable body it was, he should have voted in favor of a commitment, because it was the duty of the legislature to attend to subjects brought before them by their const.i.tuents; if, upon inquiry, it was discovered to be improper to comply with the prayer of the pet.i.tioners, he would say so, and they would be satisfied.